The End Of Roman Britain.

If my memory serves, during the early empire, the Romans stationed four legions in Britain - the most in any province at the time. When the End came and the legionaries salary wagons ceased to arrive, the soldiers faded into the population or went home without the assistance of a Brit 'rebellion'. A peaceful affair.

Or, once again, am I out of order?

If my memory serves, during the early empire, the Romans stationed four legions in Britain - the most in any province at the time. When the End came and the legionaries salary wagons ceased to arrive, the soldiers faded into the population or went home without the assistance of a Brit 'rebellion'. A peaceful affair.

Or, once again, am I out of order?

At the end of Roman dominion over Britain there were at least 2 and perhaps 3 or 4 legions still serving there: VI Victrix, II Augusta, XX Valeria Victrix (this may or may not have still been in service in Britain but others may have more immediate knowledge of its fate as it disapears from the historical record in the 3rd century) and finally II Brittannica which was possibly established from a vexillation of II Augusta and made a full independent legion at some point.

While some legionaries (VI Victrix and probably II Augusta) were very likely withdrawn to the main continent by Stilicho/Honorius in the late 4th or early 5th centuries, its clear that some remained (especially retired veterans, and clearly citizens remained within the communities that they had lived their entire lives).

In 407 Constantine III was proclaimed Emperor by the British troops (the third in a quick succession of British usurpers) and crossed to Boulogne where he was able to secure the allegiance of the legions of Gaul, in place of Stilicho and Honorius.

His forces fought several engagements with the vast hords of Vandals, Alans and Suevi who had just crossed the Rhine in 406/407 (and it's interesting to speculate whether his series of Roman counter-attacks from north-eastern Gaul may have been instrumental in deflecting the Goths southwards towards Spain...?).

Constantine's forces were then defeated by legitimist forces led by Flavius Constantius, on behalf of Honorius, in a brief civil war in 410/411.

We know from Zosimus (6.5.2) that the British threw off Constantine's rule and appealed to Honrius for help against the Picts, Scots and Saxons in 410 but were urged by the Emperor to, 'fend for themselves'. The result, according to Gildas, was that the British employed Saxon mercenaries to protect them. Perhaps this became widespread after the veteran genaration of old Roman soldiers passed away. Unfortunately, the Saxon mercenaries eventually turned on their employers after being refused an exorbitant pay rise and caused havoc:

"All the major towns were laid low by the repeated battering of enemy rams; laid low, too, all the inhabitants - church leaders, priests and people alike, as the swords glinted all around and the flames crackled ... In the middle of the squares the foundation stones of high walls and towers that had been torn from their lofty base, holy altars, fragments of corpses covered with a purple crust of congealed blood looked as though they had been mixed up in some dreadful wine-press." - On the Ruin of Britain, 24.3 and 20.1

It seems likely that these catastrophic events coincided with the final British appeal to be given imperial protection, made to Aetius around 445.

Given the large-scale campaigns being fought by Constantine in Gaul against the Gothic tribes and other Romans and the evidence of reliance on mercenaries by the British thereafter, we have to suspect that Constantine took the bulk of the British legions with him to Bolougne in 407 and that they never came back.

The soldiers who should have been manning Hadrians Wall and the Saxon shore forts were just ground up in the fighting in Gaul.

So not really a peaceful affair, Octavius

L., did all you wrote add up to a British chasing (or 'rebellion'), of the Romans out of Britain?

L., did all you wrote add up to a British chasing (or 'rebellion'), of the Romans out of Britain?

No; more a case of one Roman taking the army with him, followed by the Romano-Britons renouncing allegiance to him and seeking to be taken back into the Imperial fold.

Rather than throwing off the Roman yoke, the diocese of Britain was very eager to put it back on by all accounts!

But one reading of the evidence around 410 DOES suggest that the British threw out the Roman administrators and formed their own government.

See some of the recnt writing on the subject.

I am one of those who doubts that Honorius' famous rescript actually refers to the diocese of Britain - but to some other part of the empire nearer Italy. It just doesn't fit the circumstances forme, andwould be a remarkably lucky and convenient survival if it does.

Roman Britain did not fall as a culture until the death of Arthur c 500- 530. My humble opinion, of course.

Phil

But one reading of the evidence around 410 DOES suggest that the British threw out the Roman administrators and formed their own government.

Indeed it does:

We know from Zosimus (6.5.2) that the British threw off Constantine's rule ...

What's the evidence for Honorius's message not being addressed to the Britons? I've heard that theory before but never seen the reasoning.

I tend to feel 500-530 is rather late for the break down of Roman life. The archaeological evidence shows that coinage and decent pottery stopped being used c.430 and that many hill forts were re-occupied in the 5th century, but I'd be interested to hear another view if you'd care to flesh it out, Phil.

Tom

I know that after the majority of the soldiers were taken to the continent, there was widespread inflation due to lack of money flow, and the brits had to resort to bartering.

I would caution against this view of the "legions2 being withdrawn from Britannia being the "end" of Roman Britain.

In my youth, history books were full of pictures of the last legionaries embarking, all in their lorica segmentatae, pila in hand. Soldiers saying farewell to loved ones.

it wasn't like that at all.

We know the legions were wholly differet in equipment and organisation from the days of Claudius and even Hadrian. Most of the regular formations had probably left under Magnus Maximus c 383.

From the wall we know that troops now inter-married and were recruited locally, even though once immigrants. The old separation of army and populace hardly existed any more.

I think later usurpers may have recruited in Britannia, some remaining formations may have been ordered to the continent, but I don't think it was a dramatic event - just a trickling away. After 407ish, I doubt the "imperial" administration had any authority to do anything. But even then there were enough troops in the province to elect at least two emperors, including a Constantine (III). The troops he took on his "adventure" overseas were, IMHO, logically recruits and conscriptees - I doubt there were any regular reserves left .

When I talk of Arthur marking the end of Roman Britain, I would agree that things had eroded and decayed very much in that 100 years period, but I think that Arthur (whomever he was) kept alive an aspiration to return one day to Roman standards and values. With his death, that dream, and possibility, vanished forever.

I'll look out the reference on Honorius.

Phil

I would caution against this view of the "legions2 being withdrawn from Britannia being the "end" of Roman Britain.

 

In my youth, history books were full of pictures of the last legionaries embarking, all in their lorica segmentatae, pila in hand. Soldiers saying farewell to loved ones.

 

it wasn't like that at all.

Phil, I agree that the notion of a single mass withdrawal of every available legionary from a single place while civilians weeped at the site is ridiculous. However, I see no real reason to doubt Zosimus suggestion that the troops were actually withdrawn to the continent. To me, it seems obvious that men were needed for the immediate defense of the empire and Britain's distance made its abandonment rather logical. But like you, it makes more sense that the men were mostly withdrawn well prior to Constantine's revolt.

What we aren't able to prove or disprove is whether this happened over the course of 2 to 3 decades or all at once by imperial order. It sure seems like the first option would make more sense especially since many regulars were probably already displaced by various revolts/civil war. Perhaps there were only a few real cohorts left of Legio II when the final withdrawal took place, perhaps even less, but I personally feel no reason to doubt that there was some sort of an organized withdrawal of remaining regulars who manned the supply routes and ports. If this happened, it only makes sense that most regulars were long gone by the early part of the 5th century and the last removal of Roman forces may have been more symbolic than anything else. However, an organized withdrawal could have easily taken place prior to the revolt of Constantine... in effect opening the door for just such an occurence. Perhaps Zosimus (who used sources long since lost to us) was simply using tainted or slightly incorrect data. (Though its easy to doubt the accuracy of Geoffrey of Monmouth, it is quite practical that most of these legionaries were also gone by the time Magnus Maximus went gallavanting around the continent as well.)

Personally I feel that Jack Whyte paints a very viable picture in his "Skystone" and immediate successor book despite it obviously being a novel. Quite interesting and entertaining at the same time for folks so inclined to "possibilities".

PS. Is it not also rather evident that many locally recruited auxilia and transported 'foreign' forces remained and mingled with the populace long after the Roman departure. (Or is such evidence tainted by the mass influx of the Anglos, Saxons, Nords, Scotii, etc.)?

I have the Jack Whyte novels, though I don't dind them easy. They are on the list for when I retire!!

I am very much an adherent of the - they went earlier - school. If anything was withdrawn in c410, it was the headquarters cadres, probably expelled by the new native administration.

I just don't think that the sequence of usurping pretenders from Allectus onwards would - between them - have left anything of a standing/ professional army to withdraw.

Inherent military probablility usually scores with me.

Phil

I am very much an adherent of the - they went earlier - school. If anything was withdrawn in c410, it was the headquarters cadres, probably expelled by the new native administration.

Gildas was also of the 'they went earlier' persuasion:

"13. At length also, new races of tyrants sprang up, in terrific numbers, and the island, still bearing its Roman name, but casting off her institutes and laws, sent forth among the Gauls that bitter scion of her own planting Maximus, with a great number of followers, and the ensigns of royalty, which he bore without decency and without lawful right, but in a tyrannical manner, and amid the disturbances of the seditious soldiery. ...

"14. After this, Britain is left deprived of all her soldiery and armed bands, of her cruel governors, and of the flower of her youth, who went with Maximus, but never again returned; and utterly ignorant as she was of the art of war, groaned in amazement for many years under the cruelty of two foreign nations-the Scots from the north-west, and the Picts from the north."

Inherent military probablility usually scores with me.

And with me too. But on the same basis, for Constantine III's rebellion to be successful, he must have had enough troops under his command in Britain in 407 to secure his position. Otherwise what could he offer Gaul? If he'd simply been in charge of the IX Mobile Bath Cohort, or similar, it would have been a hopeless springboard for a pretender.

As for the survival of Roman life, the limited sources are, well, very limited. Archaeology tells us that coinage and mass-produced pottery ceased in the 430s and good old Gildas provides another book end in the 540s, when, he tells us:

"26. ... And yet neither to this day are the cities of our country inhabited as before, but being forsaken and overthrown, still lie desolate; our foreign wars having ceased, but our civil troubles still remaining."

But as for how long city life or a villa economy endured between these points, I must confess the more I read the less certain I get! And measuring intangible signs of 'Romaness' such as language, dress and thought seems almost completely impossible to me - it's like trying to do a jigsaw puzzle without the picture and with only 2 of the pieces! But I'm happy to be contradicted.

I think that this quote from Gildas' The Ruin of Britain may be useful to this discussion.

Chapter 23

Then all the councillors, together with that proud tyrant Gurthrigern [Vortigern], the British king, were so blinded, that, as a protection to their country, they sealed its doom by inviting in among them (like wolves into the sheep-fold), the fierce and impious Saxons, a race hateful both to God and men, to repel the invasions of the northern nations. Nothing was ever so pernicious to our country, nothing was ever so unlucky. What palpable darkness must have enveloped their minds--darkness desperate and cruel! Those very people whom, when absent, they dreaded more than death itself, were invited to reside, as one may say, under the selfsame roof. Foolish are the princes, as it is said, of Thafneos, giving counsel to unwise Pharaoh. A multitude of whelps came forth from the lair of this barbaric lioness, in three cyuls, as they call them, that is, in three ships of war, with their sails wafted by the wind and with omens and prophecies favourable, for it was foretold by a certain soothsayer among them, that they should occupy the country to which they were sailing three hundred years, and half of that time, a hundred and fifty years, should plunder and despoil the same. They first landed on the eastern side of the island, by the invitation of the unlucky king, and there fixed their sharp talons, apparently to fight in favour of the island, but alas! more truly against it. Their mother-land, finding her first brood thus successful, sends forth a larger company of her wolfish offspring, which sailing over, join themselves to their bastard-born comrades. From that time the germ of iniquity and the root of contention planted their poison amongst us, as we deserved, and shot forth into leaves and branches. The barbarians being thus introduced as soldiers into the island, to encounter, as they falsely said, any dangers in defence of their hospitable entertainers, obtain an allowance of provisions, which, for some time being plentifully bestowed, stopped their doggish mouths. Yet they complain that their monthly supplies are not furnished in sufficient abundance, and they industriously aggravate each occasion of quarrel, saying that unless more liberality is shown them, they will break the treaty and plunder the whole island. In a short time, they follow up their threats with deeds.

Chapter 24

For the fire of vengeance, justly kindled by former crimes, spread from sea to sea, fed by the hands of our foes in the east, and did not cease, until, destroying the neighbouring towns and lands, it reached the other side of the island, and dipped its red and savage tongue in the western ocean. In these assaults, therefore, not unlike that of the Assyrian upon Judea, was fulfilled in our case what the prophet describes in words of lamentation: "They have burned with fire the sanctuary; they have polluted on earth the tabernacle of thy name." And again, "O God, the gentiles have come into thine inheritance; thy holy temple have they defiled," &c. So that all the columns were levelled with the ground by the frequent strokes of the battering-ram, all the husbandmen routed, together with their bishops, priests, and people, whilst the sword gleamed, and the flames crackled around them on every side. Lamentable to behold, in the midst of the streets lay the tops of lofty towers, tumbled to the ground, stones of high walls, holy altars, fragments of human bodies, covered with livid clots of coagulated blood, looking as if they had been squeezed together in a press; and with no chance of being buried, save in the ruins of the houses, or in the ravening bellies of wild beasts and birds; with reverence be it spoken for their blessed souls, if, indeed, there were many found who were carried, at that time, into the high heaven by the holy angels. So entirely had the vintage, once so fine, degenerated and become bitter, that, in the words of the prophet, there was hardly a grape or ear of corn to be seen where the husbandman had turned his back.

Chapter 25

Some, therefore, of the miserable remnant, being taken in the mountains, were murdered in great numbers; others, constrained by famine, came and yielded themselves to be slaves for ever to their foes, running the risk of being instantly slain, which truly was the greatest favour that could be offered them: some others passed beyond the seas with loud lamentations instead of the voice of exhortation. "Thou hast given us as sheep to be slaughtered, and among the Gentiles hast thou dispersed us." Others, committing the safeguard of their lives, which were in continual jeopardy, to the mountains, precipices, thickly wooded forests, and to the rocks of the seas (albeit with trembling hearts), remained still in their country. But in the meanwhile, an opportunity happening, when these most cruel robbers were returned home, the poor remnants of our nation (to whom flocked from divers places round about our miserable countrymen as fast as bees to their hives, for fear of an ensuing storm), being strengthened by God, calling upon him with all their hearts, as the poet says,--

"With their unnumbered vows they burden heaven,"

that they might not be brought to utter destruction, took arms under the conduct of Ambrosius Aurelianus, a modest man, who of all the Roman nation was then alone in the confusion of this troubled period by chance left alive. His parents, who for their merit were adorned with the purple, had been slain in these same broils, and now his progeny in these our days, although shamefully degenerated from the worthiness of their ancestors, provoke to battle their cruel conquerors, and by the goodness of our Lord obtain the victory.

Chapter 26

After this, sometimes our countrymen, sometimes the enemy, won the field, to the end that our Lord might in this land try after his accustomed manner these his Israelites, whether they loved him or not, until the year of the siege of Mount Badon [Note: Giles translates "Badonici montis" as "of Bath-hill"], when took place also the last almost, though not the least slaughter of our cruel foes, which was (as I am sure) forty-four years and one month after the landing of the Saxons, and also the time of my own nativity. And yet neither to this day are the cities of our country inhabited as before, but being forsaken and overthrown, still lie desolate; our foreign wars having ceased, but our civil troubles still remaining. For as well the remembrance of such a terrible desolation of the island, as also of the unexpected recovery of the same, remained in the minds of those who were eyewitnesses of the wonderful events of both, and in regard thereof, kings, public magistrates, and private persons, with priests and clergymen, did all and every one of them live orderly according to their several vocations. But when these had departed out of this world, and a new race succeeded, who were ignorant of this troublesome time, and had only experience of the present prosperity, all the laws of truth and justice were so shaken and subverted, that not so much as a vestige or remembrance of these virtues remained among the above-named orders of men, except among a very few who, compared with the great multitude which were daily rushing headlong down to hell, are accounted so small a number, that our reverend mother, the church, scarcely beholds them, her only true children, reposing in her bosom; whose worthy lives, being a pattern to all men, and beloved of God, inasmuch as by their holy prayers, as by certain pillars and most profitable supporters, our infirmity is sustained up, that it may not utterly be broken down, I would have no one suppose I intended to reprove, if forced by the increasing multitude of offences, I have freely, aye, with anguish, not so much declared as bewailed the wickedness of those who are become servants, not only to their bellies, but also to the devil rather than to Christ, who is our blessed God, world without end.

Rather than throwing off the Roman yoke, the diocese of Britain was very eager to put it back on by all accounts!

Now that an odd twist of history. The british seem to have had a lot of regard for the roman times yet the romans on the continent were only too keen to keep Rome at a distance in its twilight years.