The REAL Tiberius

I have just watched I, Claudius for the first time and was shocked by the portrayal of Tiberius compared to his character in The Caesars.

In I Claudius he is a buffoon who has his mother to thank for every single achievement in his life and in old age, after Livia's death, becomes little more than a dirty old man.

In The Caesars he is a very intelligent man. Coldly aristocratic and aloof but a master of strategy.

Of these two views which is most like the REAL Tiberius?

The one in The Caesars I reckon. There is a lengthy debate on Tiberius somewhere on this forum. I'll see if I can dig it up

The one in The Caesars I reckon. There is a lengthy debate on Tiberius somewhere on this forum. I'll see if I can dig it up

Agreed. The 'I, Claudius' Tiberius is simply an ancillary character who helps establish Livia as a dominant force. There seems to be more Nero/Agrippina relationship in the Tiberius/Livia combination presented in I, Claudius. (imo, of course)

George Baker's perfomance in "I CLAVDIVS!" is superb, but dictated by Graves' idea that Livia was the puppetress.

Andre Morell, to me, IS Tiberius - the man I see and study in the statues and busts in The Vatican Museum, the Capitoline etc. Austere, intelligent, tragic, honest, capable...

I can say no more,

Phil

George Baker's perfomance in "I CLAVDIVS!" is superb, but dictated by Graves' idea that Livia was the puppetress.

 

Andre Morell, to me, IS Tiberius - the man I see and study in the statues and busts in The Vatican Museum, the Capitoline etc. Austere, intelligent, tragic, honest, capable...

 

I can say no more,

 

Phil

Capable , but undemonstrative to the "popular media" .

Like many aristocrats - indeed many high-achievers - through history Tiberius regarded the "mob" with scorn.

Who were they to judge him? What basis did they have for their judgement?Shakespeare illustrates the attitude well in the character and actions of Coriolanus. "You common cry of curs..."

Who is to say he is wrong?

Would anyone today really respect the judgement of someone who's sole source of news was The Sun or the Nationasl Enquirer, who who never read a newspaper/watched the news?

What Tiberius got wrong, IMHO, was that he ignored and alienated the SENATORIAL lobby.

Phil

George Baker's perfomance in "I CLAVDIVS!" is superb ...

Phil

Yes, I agree. It was the first time, I think, that I had seen George Baker on television. The development or misdevelopment of the character was extremely well done, mirrored in his ever-more-gloomy facial expression.

If we accept at least some of Graves's diagnosis (and I think I do accept some of it, while setting Livia on one side) Tiberius was a well-meaning, introspective, intellectual, type, capable but not much loved or admired, with an unsuitable wife forced on him by dynastic concerns (he continued to pine after the woman he was really in love with) and it all soured him ... Why, one might see a parallel in the British royal family right now, though I hope the outcome is not as disastrous!

If we put his inexcusable character traits aside, Tiberius is a rather tragic figure: he was forced into divorcing a wife he actually loved (a rare event in Roman times); both Gaius and Lucius Caesar howled for his blood during his time spent (in what was effetely exile) in Rhodes; and above all else, he did not seem to want to become Emperor (If we assign ourselves to a traditional view, it was Livia who suggested that Tiberius became Emperor after the deaths of Gaius and Lucius).

In my view, a lot of Tiberius’ bad press was stemmed from his neglect rather than his scorn.

"Andre Morell IS Tiberius". I do hope so. He was marvellous.

PP

"Nero/Agrippina relationship". Agrippina or Agrippinella?

"Bad Press stems from neglect". By allowing Sejanus to corner so much power?

Is there any connection between Tiberius' first wife VIPSANIA and Marcus Agrippa (middle name - VIPSANIUS) ?

Or is the name of no relevence?

Tiberuius is enigmatic - a reserved character who seems to resent power thrust upon him. Is that simply Robert Graves writing? I see Tiberius as a guy with some deep seated quirks. I'm not sure how far they went but he definitely exhibited misanthropic behaviour - he just didn't like people. Hence his long holiday in Capri and trusting government to his associates. As for his 'dirty old man' label, I can't say. I was informed that roman pornography has been found at the site of his villa but that doesn't mean it was his. As a solitary old guy living apart from the world in semi-retirement, rumours are almost bound to spring up. Is there any parallel between him and howard hughes, in that tiberius became a bit flakey? Hmmm... Not sure, but the stories of his anti-social behaviour are usually those during his long absence from Rome. He did rely heavily on Thrasyllus, his astrologer, and in this respect 'I Caesar' and the histories are in agreement.

PP I can't find the Tiberius thread from back in the day. I seem to remember it being a split topic, can you try?

To what "inexcusable character traits" do you refer, Wot Wotius?

Caldrail, I doubt ANY 1st century *or* has been found at the Villa Iovis. If you have a source, I'd be VERY interested to hear it.

Tiberius was a PHILOSOPHER (at least, manque) who found a retreat satisfying - hence the sojourn in Rhodes. I doubt fellow thinkers such as nerva would have shared his "exile" if he had been as perverse as later writers suggest. NOTE: there areno such claims from Rhodes or any other period of his life. The "stories" are just fill-ins for the gap left by this private man, who cared not a jot for what others thought.

Whatever Sejanus' defects and motives, the model of a 2shared" principiate was not unknown to or absent from the Augustan model. What else was Agrippa? except a more moral Sejanus? What role would Lucius have played under Gaius (his brother not Caligula)?

To answer an earlier question, Vipsania (Tiberius' first wife) was Agrippa's daughter by his first marriage.

Nero's mother is usually referred to as Agrippina the younger or Minor in English.

Phil

Agrippina the Younger or Minor.

Thanks Phil. In I Claudius she is called Agrippinella.

Paul, I just want to comment on the I,Claudius protrayal part of your topic here. Although the character of Tiberius was treated to much the same artistic licence as others in Graves' novel, I nevertheless think that when we follow the character development of Tiberius from Episode One, right the way through to his death, Graves and the script-writer Jack Pullman (who did an excellent job) do give us some insights into the 'real' Tiberius. For instance, I recall the intimate scene between Tiberius and Drusus at the Baths/Gymnasium when Tiberius says to Drusus that he is his 'lifeline into the light', and that if he were to lose him, he would then have lost the three most beloved people in his life: his father (Tiberius Nero - good gods, save us all!); his first wife Vipsania and Drusus himself. I can remember the line spoken by Baker: 'There are times when I so hate myself, that I can no longer bear the thought of me any more'. And much later when Agrippina comes upon him sacrificing to Augustus, he has asked his Divine father to 'light the darkness in my soul and bring me peace'. Baker played both these scenes with a sympathy for his character that was touching, and echoed the real man, in my opinion. A naturally shy man, brought up with a domineering mother and a younger brother who was adored by his revolutionary stepfather, suddenly finding himself thrust into the limelight without any natural social skills; add to this an intense emotional nature kept hidden - so intense that he never got over the forced ending of his marriage to Vipsania - and a natural wish for seclusion and quiet study when not discharging his military duties; no wonder he needed a lifeline into the light.

As a whimsical aside - but one which the Emperor himself would have appreciated, due to his reliance on Thrasyllus - Tiberius was quite typical of his birthsign! (I once dabbled with astrology in my 'New Age' period and now that ephemerides are available online for every year since about 1000 BC, his horoscope is very, very revealing indeed! )

Caldrail, I doubt ANY 1st century *or* has been found at the Villa Iovis. If you have a source, I'd be VERY interested to hear it.

Phil

I might be able to dig that one up so to speak. I'll let you know.