Hadrian Caesar 0 Report post Posted April 4, 2007 I've read what everyone has to say about the pilum's many functions, and I'd like to read more - from the original Roman writings, that is. Are there any ancient sources which mention the pilum's ability to bend upon impact, or is that trait just a modern assumption? Thanks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Publius Nonius Severus 0 Report post Posted April 4, 2007 (edited) Here is what Plutarch had to say, Life of Marius, Chap 25: "When these things had been reported to the Cimbri, they once more advanced against Marius, who kept quiet and carefully guarded his camp. And it is said that it was in preparation for this battle that Marius introduced an innovation in the structure of the javelin. Up to this time, it seems, that part of the shaft which was let into the iron head was fastened there by two iron nails; but now, leaving one of these as it was, Marius removed the other, and put in its place a wooden pin that could easily p531be broken. 2 His design was that the javelin, after striking the enemy's shield, should not stand straight out, but that the wooden peg should break, thus allowing the shaft to bend in the iron head and trail along the ground, being held fast by the twist at the point of the weapon." Edited April 4, 2007 by Publius Nonius Severus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rameses the Great 0 Report post Posted April 4, 2007 The Romans, to my understanding, wanted to make the pilum weak and easily breakable so that the enemy would not have the oppurtunity to throw them back or use it in battle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hadrian Caesar 0 Report post Posted April 4, 2007 (edited) This all strikes me as illogical. About a year ago, a television series entitled Battlefield Britain once featured legionary reenactors who, for the episode, conducted tests with modern pilum reconstructions. The latter showed that unless the pilum has actually lodged itself in the man behind the shield, the heavy pilum (regardless of its malleable design) merely slides back out the hole it made upon impact - without bending even slightly. All that stops it from falling to the ground is its barbed point. My point is, a pilum won't lodge itself in a shield - the long, slender iron tip prohibits it from doing so. It doesn't matter if it can be bent; its weight just forces it to slide back out until it hits the ground or its barbs get caught in the newly made hole. I just can't see how this bending or breaking concept can work through physics. Even if, as some have suggested, the legionary was supposed to step on the spear, thus breaking its pins, that sort of action would be far too risky to perform in the heat of battle. His foot would probably slip or miss altogether, especially if he's wearing studded caligae. All I seem to be able to conclude is that the pilum was made to kill, and if it failed at that, to become such a hindrance to the enemy's movement that he be forced to drop his shield. Before the poor Gaul could take the time to wiggle the barbs out, the Roman had already killed him. I just don't get it. When thrown, a pilum won't get stuck in a shield, break, or bend for the world. Edited April 4, 2007 by Hadrian Caesar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caldrail 152 Report post Posted April 5, 2007 I just don't get it. When thrown, a pilum won't get stuck in a shield, break, or bend for the world. First of all, modern recreations are not exact, they're reversed engineered and only approximate at best. Also, the method of use is also subject to the same research and guesswork. That said, there's probably not too many ways to throw a spear! When considering the impact, you also have to bear in mind the strength and construction of the shield, which might vary from the reproductions. Case 1: The early pilum with two pins, one wooden, one metal. The pilum is thrown and strikes the shield. The weight of the impact forces the point into the shield structure which gives way - the pilum penetrates. The sudden impact load on the point is transferred to the shaft via the two pins. One is made from metal, which merely deforms and doesn't break. The wooden one cannot deform under shock load and snaps, leaving only the metal pin as a hinge, and from that moment the pilum is rendered useless as a weapon. However, the impact is already made, and for a brief moment an uninjured enemy must take time to remove the awkward and unwieldy pilum from his shield or simply abandon the shield altogether. It isn't guaranteed that the pilum can be withdrawn because its possible for shield splinters to close up behind the point during withdrawal. The pilums that have penetrated the shield and with enough force to injure the enemy behind it have already served their purpose, and the impact with the shield has already broken the wooden pin. Case 2: The later pilum with soft iron shank. Again the pilum is thrown and strikes the shield. The weight of impact forces the point through the shield but the shaft carries this blow without any damage to the fixings, which are not designed to break. When the pilum comes to rest, either in the shield or the body of the bearer, the weight of the shaft causes a bending moment that acts on the natual pivot point which is the shield hole. Therefore under gravity or perhaps forced by some shield movement the pilum shank bends, making the point useless thereafter. There is still a likeliehood of shank-bending if the bearer is killed or injured. In both cases remember that the enemy is probably using a shield wall formation, and are therefore attempting to keep their shields presented for protection at all costs. Assuming the bearer isn't injured, then the pilum is a large weight making the shield very unwieldy at best. In a shield wall situation it might not be possible for the bearer to reach over and extricate the pilum without exposing himself to danger or dropping his weapon. The technique of standing on a pilum isn't as difficult as you think. The pilum ahs already bent or fallen to the ground under gravity, and the bearer of the shield is more concerned with the legionaries about to skewer him to waste time fiddling about with removing the pilum from his shield even if he could that in the heat of combat. You don't actually need to stand on it squarely, merely kick it. There's enough leverage to pull the enemy shield down. Please realise that the enemy is probably trying to use his shield to good effect during a roman advance or whatever and since he's under fire from pilum salvoes, not to mention the imminent arrival of sword thrusts, he's already in a defensive stance and might not be able to see everything going on in front of him. Its interesting that the recreations didn't achieve the results expected Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gaius Octavius 1 Report post Posted April 5, 2007 Are the reenactors throwing the pila with the same force that a trained legionary might? The spear will be travelling in an arc. when the point hits an object it will slow and stop. The shaft will want to continue in the same arc, but can't. It will then act as a lever and break the pin. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philosalexandros 0 Report post Posted April 6, 2007 so does that mean that the metal shaft becomes disconnected with the wooden part Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gaius Octavius 1 Report post Posted April 6, 2007 so does that mean that the metal shaft becomes disconnected with the wooden part The metalic point and the wooden shaft act like a door hinge. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hadrian Caesar 0 Report post Posted April 6, 2007 (edited) Dear caldrail, Before I go on, I'd just like to illuminate the topic: the existence of original, ancient quotes mentioning the pilum's ability to bend - either through the breaking of a wooden pin, or the softness of the metal shank. If, as I suspect, there are no such quotes, then we must discuss this by means of probability and logic, as opposed to mere guessing. In other words, experimental archaeology is usually helpful when no historical evidence remains to clarify the matter. However, if anyone can produce a genuine record of the pilum's purposely flexible design, then by all means, be my guest. Concerning the strength and construction of the targeted shield, it's safe to say that on average, most shields of the ancient world probably couldn't resist the impact of a 10 pound javelin focused on a minuscule, steel point - especially if the overall diameter of the shaft was no more than 7mm. The pilum was armour-piercing, and could thus punch a hole in most germanic and celtic shields. Friend, physics have shown that in a collision, an object in movement has an advantage over one that's static. For example, lead bullets are found whole after having penetrated through armour. That said, they endure some deformation upon impact, but don't deteriorate. On the other hand, lead is a soft metal, whereas a pilum's head is of iron. Thus, if a lead bullet can absorb the impact of high-speed contact with steel armour, then a pilum can probably cope with piercing a layered wooden shield. In Case 1, logic dictates that the pilum's pin, unless composed of sculpting clay, is likely to stay intact upon entering an gallic shield. Also, most of the momentum is focused in a forward direction. The only forces that could break the pin are lateral ones, such as gravity, and even it wouldn't be enough. In Case 2, I can't see how a pilum with such a flexible iron shank can still be called a weapon. Sure, it may succeed in hampering an enemy shield, as you say, but for the iron to be so soft as to sufficiently bend would mean seriously decreasing the chances of dammaging the shield or its user. Again, in order to be dangerous, the shank would have to be too hard to bend so effectively. It would have to bend to an angle of at least 45 degrees if it were to have any effect, and barbs do a better job at preventing removal, anyway. For both cases, we have to remember that some post-marian pila had wooden guards to protect the hand. This modification indicates their possible use as melee weapons. To bestow the javelins with the ability to bend or break, as suggested, would render this guard futile; the pilum would become unusable after the first thrust. The technique of stepping on the broken pilum is supposedly the one demanding the use of these pins, correct? That would mean that the point where the pilum broke has become a loose joint. How, then, could the Roman pull down his enemy's shield arm if his foot could only kick the free-swinging javelin out of the way? Thanks Edited April 6, 2007 by Hadrian Caesar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caldrail 152 Report post Posted April 7, 2007 Concerning the strength and construction of the targeted shield, it's safe to say that on average, most shields of the ancient world probably couldn't resist the impact of a 10 pound javelin focused on a minuscule, steel point - especially if the overall diameter of the shaft was no more than 7mm. The pilum was armour-piercing, and could thus punch a hole in most germanic and celtic shields. Possibly, but we also note the spherical weights added to pila of the later imperial period to increase penetration. Was there an improvement in shield protection? Possibly, but it seems unlikely. Friend, physics have shown that in a collision, an object in movement has an advantage over one that's static. For example, lead bullets are found whole after having penetrated through armour. That said, they endure some deformation upon impact, but don't deteriorate. On the other hand, lead is a soft metal, whereas a pilum's head is of iron. Thus, if a lead bullet can absorb the impact of high-speed contact with steel armour, then a pilum can probably cope with piercing a layered wooden shield. In Case 1, logic dictates that the pilum's pin, unless composed of sculpting clay, is likely to stay intact upon entering an gallic shield. Also, most of the momentum is focused in a forward direction. The only forces that could break the pin are lateral ones, such as gravity, and even it wouldn't be enough. Ok Friend, then take a pilum, hold it near the point, and try to raise it. Quite apart from the effort to lift the shaft to a horizontal attitude is possibly more than you're physically capable of, you will also notice that the leverage of the weighty shaft is more than sufficient to cause a bending moment in a piece of metal less whose stiffness is very low. Its just physics. In Case 2, I can't see how a pilum with such a flexible iron shank can still be called a weapon. Sure, it may succeed in hampering an enemy shield, as you say, but for the iron to be so soft as to sufficiently bend would mean seriously decreasing the chances of dammaging the shield or its user. Again, in order to be dangerous, the shank would have to be too hard to bend so effectively. It would have to bend to an angle of at least 45 degrees if it were to have any effect, and barbs do a better job at preventing removal, anyway. No, you don't quite understand. The impact with the shield is instantaneous and soft shank or not, the penetrative momentum will push the pilum point through before any bending takes place. Only when the pilum comes to rest, either in the shield or also in the gentleman holding it, is any bending likely to occur. For both cases, we have to remember that some post-marian pila had wooden guards to protect the hand. This modification indicates their possible use as melee weapons. To bestow the javelins with the ability to bend or break, as suggested, would render this guard futile; the pilum would become unusable after the first thrust. Wooden guards? Not on pila. Are you describing a spear of the late empire? By that time the pilum, was falling into disuse and was replaced with a number of differing spear designs. The technique of stepping on the broken pilum is supposedly the one demanding the use of these pins, correct? That would mean that the point where the pilum broke has become a loose joint. How, then, could the Roman pull down his enemy's shield arm if his foot could only kick the free-swinging javelin out of the way? Thanks I don't really think the pilum could be described as free-swinging. Under gravity the end of the shaft will drop to the ground very quickly in this case. If perhaps it didn't - and I must accept that there's a possibility of it - then the shield has an awkward weight hanging off it and the bearer simply won't be able to use his shield effectively, even if he's strong enough to continue holding it up. Try this yourself. Make a bogus shield with a 6' wooden shaft sticking out of it. You will struggle! As I said its interesting that the re-enactors failed to achieve these results because other re-enactors have supported the bendy/hinged pilum idea. This has been popular wisdom for some time.... Here is what Plutarch had to say, Life of Marius, Chap 25: "When these things had been reported to the Cimbri, they once more advanced against Marius, who kept quiet and carefully guarded his camp. And it is said that it was in preparation for this battle that Marius introduced an innovation in the structure of the javelin. Up to this time, it seems, that part of the shaft which was let into the iron head was fastened there by two iron nails; but now, leaving one of these as it was, Marius removed the other, and put in its place a wooden pin that could easily p531be broken. 2 His design was that the javelin, after striking the enemy's shield, should not stand straight out, but that the wooden peg should break, thus allowing the shaft to bend in the iron head and trail along the ground, being held fast by the twist at the point of the weapon." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hadrian Caesar 0 Report post Posted April 10, 2007 (edited) True, what you say is possible. If it's alright, I just need a bit more info. Please describe once more how the pilum bent and the circumstances in which it did, and finally why the ancients prefered that bending design to a simpler, hard-shanked throwing spear. Thanks, PS: Again, if you have the time, I may have a couple more questions afterwards. Edited April 10, 2007 by Hadrian Caesar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caldrail 152 Report post Posted April 11, 2007 True, what you say is possible. If it's alright, I just need a bit more info. Please describe once more how the pilum bent and the circumstances in which it did, and finally why the ancients prefered that bending design to a simpler, hard-shanked throwing spear. Thanks, PS: Again, if you have the time, I may have a couple more questions afterwards. Well this is just my opinion, but the hinged shank design had one failing in that it wouldn't withstand sideways loads. So if the legionary accidentally knocked the point the pilum might turn useless very quickly. A bendy shank can be straightened very easily, even without the need of craftsmen probably, but still not easily enough to let the enemy do that on the battlefield when they're likely to be somewhat busy! A normal spear thrown against a shield can be thrown back. Soldiers are crafty beggars like that and the romans considered that it would be better if a thrown pilum was useless to the enemy. The ability to deshield your opponent is a by-product, not the original intent. Ok. You're facing a roman legion. Your commander realises the action is about to start and calls for you all to form a shield wall. Thats just commonsense - the romans have spears after all. Sure enough, as they close in, their tropops loose a volley of those plia of theirs. There's a crescendo of wooden thwocks and screams as some men are killed or injured by the metal points piercing their protection. Your own shield takes two pila in close succession. One simply penetrates the shield but glances off a leather strap having lost momentum. The second enters your left shoulder. First of all you are knocked back a step or two. The first pilum is now only supported by the shield and the shaft end falls to the ground. The bending may or may not be minimal perhaps but if you move the shield it might get worse because of the leverage. At any rate, the advancing romans might well employ this to their advantage when the melee starts. Whats of more concern to you is the second pilum which injured your shoulder. That isn't so easily removed and the weight of the shaft tends to pull you forward as you try to relieve the pain. If you do manage to remove it, and you will likely need to reach over the shield, there is a possibility that your arm movement will cause the shank to bend as it pulls the pilum clear. those pila that landed in the mud at your feet have stuck in the ground and bent immediately afterward because the shank cannot support the shafts weight. Those that hit the ground and slid along were bent on impact. Be ready because the romans have arrived. Your shield is damaged, so are you, the roman pila are no use to you, and your sword is somewhere on the floor as you try to remove the pila from your shield. Good luck Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hadrian Caesar 0 Report post Posted April 11, 2007 I see, so you're saying the bend in the shank was intended to make returning the pilum impossible, not to force the enemy to drop the shield? Likewise, the breaking pilum was mainly designed to allow the legionary to step on the shaft, thus pulling down his enemy's shield arm? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caldrail 152 Report post Posted April 13, 2007 Both versions of the pilum are intended to do the same thing. Prevent an enemy return throw, penetrate the shield, injure the bearer, make the shield unwieldy, allow the shield to be dropped by stepping on the shaft. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hadrian Caesar 0 Report post Posted April 14, 2007 Thanks, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites